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[19:58] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Jacky
[19:59] <@p2pu-Jacky> Hello Doug.
[20:00] <@p2pu-Jacky> Thanks for setting up this class.
[20:01] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> No worries!
[20:01] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I'm interested in finding out more about it and thought that collaboration would help me learn more. :-)
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[20:01] <@p2pu-Jacky> There is a discussion group that meets by phone every 2 weeks.
[20:01] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Terry :-)
[20:02] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky An Open Badges discussion group?
[20:02] <p2pu-terrywassal> Hi everyone. Can't stay for long as the engine's running to whisk me away. Just checking in to say hello!
[20:02] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Terry Appreciated!
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[20:02] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Would you mind if I added you two as organisers?
[20:02] <@p2pu-Jacky> It is more of a planning group of people involved in trialing the infrastructure.
[20:02] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Ian :-)
[20:03] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Evening folks :-)
[20:03] <p2pu-terrywassal> I won't be around next Saturday either as I will be at the Dark Mountain Festival. There will be an opened group there and I aim to introduce something on opne badges.
[20:03] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> In fact is it evening for us all?
[20:03] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Ian, just saw your post about badges and e-portfolios. Interesting point
[20:03] <@p2pu-Jacky> It's noon in California
[20:04] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Terry: Wish I could be there!
[20:04] <@p2pu-Jacky> Terry, thanks for your postings on the discussion threads.
[20:04] <p2pu-terrywassal> I'll report back. Sounds like it should be a good event.
[20:04] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Terry: Looked up the Social Science Centre earlier. It's something I've heard Jennifer Jones, Richard Hall and Joss Winn talk about before
[20:05] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Thanks Doug. It's all swimming around in my head at the moment. Hoping this network will help me to make sense of things
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[20:05] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I'm fascinated at the diverse group of people Open Badges has interested enough to put their name down for this semester of learning. :-)
[20:05] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Thomas
[20:05] <p2pu-terrywassal> Jennifer and some other SCC bids will be at the DM fest. I'm hoping they may be interested in what we are doing here.
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[20:06] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Hello
[20:06] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I've met Richard and Joss several times, but never Jennifer
[20:06] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Thomas, we're just talking tangents at the moment :-)
[20:06] <p2pu-terrywassal> She's quite a Gal!
[20:06] <@p2pu-Jacky> Here is the etherpad for the group that meets bi-weekly http://etherpad.mozilla.com:9000/infrastructure-advisory-group
[20:07] <p2pu-terrywassal> Is this chat stream being recorded?
[20:07] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Thanks! I added a message to the badge-discuss list and so Erin knows what's going on.
[20:07] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Terry Not AFAIK
[20:07] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Can copy/paste afterwards?
[20:07] <p2pu-jonathanf> Hi there.
[20:07] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hi Jonathan :-)
[20:08] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So, as Terry pointed out, it might be a good idea to start thinking about structure for the upcoming weeks. What do people want to explore?
[20:08] <@p2pu-Jacky> I would like to discuss badge criteria and look at rubrics.
[20:09] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Cool
[20:09] <p2pu-terrywassal> Just checked and copy and paste works fine. If someone could do this and paste as a doc somewhere that would be good. It will also preserve any links people share
[20:09] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I'll do that - add to GDocs or similar
[20:09] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So, everyone else? What would you like to explore?
[20:09] <p2pu-terrywassal> Great. I'm already regretting I'm going to miss a lot of this tonight!
[20:10] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> I'd like to keep things pratical. I have a few concrete goals (i.e. I want to take a class out of Syracuse University and teach it independently) and start figuring out what steps neet to take place to make that happen and then I want to start orgainizing to make progress on the first step.
[20:10] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK, so we'd like to actually issue badges, yes?
[20:10] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> I'd quite like to look at scope and penetration - how far across the learning landscape can the badge principle can be applied.
[20:11] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Yes. I'm not sure exactly how to make a badge yet, I've read a bit about it.
[20:11] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I think it can be as complicated as you want it to be
[20:12] <@p2pu-Jacky> Good idea Ian. It's really critical that people see badges as applying to humanities and other fields beyond software and games.
[20:12] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> As far as I see it...
[20:12] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 1. Set out criteria
[20:12] <p2pu-terrywassal> My only suggestion so far is some scenario building that is relevant to members of this group. Rather like Thomas I want to contribute my uni modules to a wider community and work with them to shape it to their needs. One aspect of this would be to work with them to create relevant badges of course.
[20:12] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> I agree Jacky.
[20:12] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 2. Individual achieves criteria
[20:12] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 3. Peer assessment/approval
[20:12] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 4. Issue of badge (checked against central list)
[20:12] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> 5. Badge displayed
[20:13] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Excellent - seems like that's something Thomas and Jacky can lead on then :-)
[20:13] <p2pu-terrywassal> Sorry to have to go. Bye for now. Keep up the good work!
[20:13] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Cheers for dropping in Terry!
[20:13] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Bye Terry
[20:14] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So, Jacky, this is something you seem to be further along the road with than many of us.
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[20:14] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> I know how to do steps 1-3 (although it would be nice to get some outsiders involved in 3, especailly professionals in the field of study) it's really step 4 that I don't know how to do. How does one "make" a badge?
[20:14] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: I think it's literally just an image, unless you want to go in for the metadata/API stuff
[20:15] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: If done on a reasonably small scale, don't see an immediate need for that?
[20:15] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> How have you exprienced those steps Thomas? As a learner/learning provider?
[20:16] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Ian: Steps 1-3 are just normal L&T stuff, surely?
[20:16] <@p2pu-Jacky> We are newbies. The group that is really advanced is P2PU School of Webcraft. Then comes OpenMichigan, Mouse, iRemix, and others. Open Michigan has a rubric posted.
[20:16] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Yes. The class in particular that I'm thinking of is a graduate level semiar on the future of public libraries that I co-taught last semester at Syracuse. They want us to teach it again, and I want to teach it again too, but I don't see what the university adds to our class. All I see is the debt my students are taking on and the insulting pay/working conditions that I work in.
[20:17] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: So you want to do it outside of Syracuse?
[20:17] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky: Thanks - got a link for Open Michigan?
[20:18] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Doug. Yep ... though in our context, less peer assessment I suspect.
[20:18] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Yes. We've started a shadow school called "The Art School in the Art School." We hold classes there just for fun on anything/everything that we want to learn/teach. But so far it is just for fun. I want to be able to offer real academic credit that is worth something in the field.
[20:19] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Thomas I think the issue of 'worth' here is of particular significance.
[20:19] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas So it would count towards uni credit, or make 'peer status' more tangible?
[20:20] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Ian Good point. Badges have to *mean* something and not be (seen to be) frivolous
[20:21] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Wondering what the thoughts of employers/recruiters might add the the conversation surrounding currency of badges.
[20:22] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Doug/Ian, I agree that we shouldn't give out frivolous badges. In this case I think the educaiton is worth the same no matter if I teach it at SU or at the AS in the AS. It's the same class with the same projects and the same value that the students and I produce together. What I'm hoping badges can do is make this class "count" to the community of public librarians.
[20:23] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> To me this is about contesting recongition. Who gets recongized as educated.
[20:23] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Hmmm... *we* as educators know that it's the same, but the badges have to be recognised as valid credentials
[20:23] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: Exactly
[20:24] <@p2pu-Jacky> The Open Michigan info showed up as I drilled down in the docs that Doug suggested but now I can't find it. I will post the link later. Here is the link for our DRAFT rubric https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AulVEyaf6XchdEFoQmExX0YzX0YzeWRaX1dYbjh4ZGc&hl=en_US
[20:24] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Thanks Jacky
[20:24] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> This is why I'm thinking that to get started I'm going to need to organize a group of widely respected leaders in public libraries and get them to publicly endorse our badge. Basically I want high ranking people within the American Libraries Assoc. to say publicly "This counts to me and it should count for you too."
[20:24] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: The problem with going outwith the university is that you could (potentially) up with the AC Grayling, et al. problem: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2011/jun/05/new-college-dawkins-grayling-ferguson
[20:25] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: i.e. people pay a premium (again) to be taught by the best names (and get the badge)
[20:25] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: Not an *immediate* problem, but... one to consider
[20:26] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky: Are you going to 'Mobility Shifts' in NYC in October?
[20:26] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Doug, I think the main problem with the new private univ. that Dawkins et al are starting is that they are a rip off. What I'm trying to do is the opposite. I'm trying to say that our current university system is exploitative and we can build something just as good where the key stakeholders, students and teachers, get treated better.
[20:27] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: Indeed, but I was just (idly) wondering how to guard against that possibility!
[20:27] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: Have you read Keri Facer's 'Education Futures'?
[20:28] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> https://kindle.amazon.com/work/learning-futures-education-technology-social/B0038M4ET0/0415581427
[20:28] <p2pu-jonathanf> @dajbelshaw I will be at MobilityShifts in October
[20:28] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan I'm trying desperately to get there!
[20:29] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Keri is Prof. of Education at Manchester Metropolitan University and just a fantastic thinker and activist. She's involved with http://purposed.org.uk
[20:29] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Wondering whether a badge system provides an alternative to traditional education or additionality?
[20:29] <p2pu-jonathanf> @dajbelshaw Will be presenting a workshop on the game-based (badge-based) learning project we are launching in a few weeks with some NYC schools.
[20:29] <@p2pu-Jacky> The Open Michigan badges are the ones labeled SOSI on this page: http://badges.p2pu.org/
[20:29] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Chapter 8 of that book is really good on 'learning maps'
[20:29] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan Sounds great. I'm going to do my best to get there :-)
[20:29] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky: Thanks!
[20:30] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Ian Alternative in what sense?
[20:30] <@p2pu-Jacky> Most of the Open Michigan badges point to this rubric: http://sustainabilityspecialization.msu.edu/competencies.pdf
[20:30] <p2pu-jonathanf> @dajbelshaw Hope you make it!  (And I'll be trying my best to have something interesting to share there!  ;-)
[20:30] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @jonathan. Any weblinks about your GBL project?
[20:31] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> I will also be at MobilityShifts. I'm going to be leading a workshiop on Alternative, Autonomous Accreditation which will take place on Wed the 19th.
[20:31] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan: Is that a MacArthur-funded project?
[20:31] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas: Gah. All the cool kids are going to be there.
[20:31] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Doug, I haven't read "Education Futures." Looks good though.
[20:31] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I may have to self-fund going to Mobility Shifts. Means taking a week's annual leave though. :-/
[20:31] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Ian Not yet.  We did a pilot with a few schools this summer, but that's all behind "school doors". Hoping to have some public info on the project after we launch with more schools this Fall.
[20:32] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Jonathan Look forward to hearing more.
[20:32] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK, let's get back to what we want to get out of this semester of learning
[20:32] <p2pu-jonathanf> @dajbelshaw No, it's funded through a federal grant to expand bandwidth to underserved communities
[20:33] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> So Thomas and Jacky are going to look at ways they can incorporate badges in their courses
[20:33] <p2pu-jonathanf> @ian look forward to showing more!  
[20:33] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan and @Ian Anything you two want to focus on in particular? :-)
[20:33] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> I'm also going to leading a class on Alternative, Autonomous Accreditation at the The Public School NY, it doesn't have a date/place lined up yet, but were going to try to do it before MobilityShifts and build off it from there: http://nyc.thepublicschool.org/class/3568
[20:35] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Cool
[20:35] <@p2pu-Jacky> Not quite for College Open Textbooks -- we do not have courses -- we hire peer reviewers for open textbooks and train them before they are allowed to review..our first badge will be for textbook reviewers.
[20:35] <p2pu-jonathanf> @thomas your session and class sound great.
[20:35] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> I guess one thing that I should do is figure out how my students should build portfolio sites for their projects in my class, something that will make their work public and that we can display a badge on. I should also figure out how to put the criteria for the badge up on the Open Badges website.
[20:36] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Well I mentioned scope earlier, and as Jacky pointed out, across & beyond the curriculum range. But also depth (for want of a better word. The extent to which these ideas can be applied to the younger students with whom I work.
[20:36] <@p2pu-Jacky> Later badges will be for accessibility reviewers, open textbook advocates, and eventually textbook creators (authors, photographers, technologists, editors, etc.
[20:36] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I don't know how many of you saw, but before P2PU I tried out BuddyPress at http://semestersoflearning.org for this
[20:36] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> It seems that BuddyPress could actually be pretty awesome as a way of creating/sustaining a community for badge-earning
[20:37] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> Clearly not as far forward in my thinking (or experience!) as other folks. At the moment!
[20:37] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Ian No worries!
[20:37] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky Thanks! So how will those badges be awarded?
[20:37] <@p2pu-Jacky> Buddy Press is usually associated with a blog. Do you have a blog Doug?
[20:37] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> http://dougbelshaw.com/blog
[20:37] <p2pu-jonathanf> @dajbelshaw We are actually using BP as the base for the NYC project I mentioned ...
[20:37] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan Aha!
[20:38] <p2pu-jonathanf> Doing a fair amt of work to build out some badge functionality
[20:38] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan: Got a link? :-)
[20:38] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Jacky, I'm trying to organize a wiki textbook to supplement the right-wing rewrite of US history that the Texas Board of Education voted on last year. I'm not sure if this is close to what you do: http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/A_supplement_to_the_Texas_US_history_textbook
[20:38] <@p2pu-Jacky> For peer reviewers, we require one year of teaching the subject at the college level plus credentials. We decided this violates the spirit of badges so we will change the name to textbook reviewers.
[20:38] <p2pu-jonathanf> Same deal as earlier -- all still on the coders' computers :)  But as soon as it is ready, I'll be happy to give this group a tour and would be pleased for your feedback.
[20:39] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan Sounds great
[20:39] <@p2pu-Jacky> I hope that you will not replace the right-wing rewrite with a left-wing rewrite.
[20:39] <p2pu-jonathanf> The idea is this:  Students complete Quests to earn Badges for skill-based work.  And then earn additional badges for social interaction, contributions to the community, for thinking about others (vs just their skills/quests).
[20:39] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky I hope they do - there's no such thing as objective history ;-)
[20:40] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Jacky, I hope not as well. I try to address that in the "intro"
[20:40] <p2pu-jonathanf> So we try to incentivize progress towards skills and being a good digital citizen
[20:40] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan Good stuff
[20:40] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I'm completing my thesis at the moment on digital literacies (http://dougbelshaw.com/thesis)
[20:40] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> In Chapter 9 I propose a 'matrix of digital literacies' with 'eight essential elements'
[20:41] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> I can't help but think badges could be used to incentivise/credentialise this
[20:41] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Jacky/Doug, I think the biggest left/right issue that will come up is just which events get covered. Texas cut out Jefferson on the seperatin of church and state. We'll put that back in, etc.
[20:41] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Doug I noticed that in your profile, Doug - love that you are posting your thesis online
[20:41] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Doug as you write it
[20:41] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan Looks all altruistic, but actually I've got some awesome feedback and has raised my profile in the academic world. ;-)
[20:42] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Doug I bet!  It's a great idea all around.
[20:42] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan True. Win/win
[20:42] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Jonathan Are the skills they'll be developing 'traditional' ones from the traditional curriculum (in addition to the social skill development)?
[20:43] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Doug, when I click on the chapters of your thesis it takes me to a Google docs page that says the doc does not exist.
[20:43] <@p2pu-Jacky> Too bad Jefferson did not also push for separation of education and state.
[20:43] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Ian Currently, the "course" gets them a Technology credit (high school aged kids) ... The content is divided into four life skill areas (Social/Digital Life Skills, College/Careers, Financial Lit, and Play).  The tech skills are overlayed over those four areas.
[20:44] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Is anyone going to be at Douglas Rushkoff's Contact Conference in Oct? I think there's a lot of overlap between our interests and what is going to be going on there.
[20:44] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Jonathan Sounds great
[20:44] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Really?
[20:45] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Ian so they are not very traditional, in that the emphasis is on real-world activity.  They get badges for things like visiting a local college or vocational school, getting a state issued ID card (so they can open bank accounts, get cell phone service) and trying out mobile apps that help them stay connected/learn etc.
[20:45] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Which chapter? Just tried 3 and they're all working?
[20:45] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Doug, here's what I get: "Sorry, the page (or document) you have requested does not exist.  Please check the address and try again.  Want to create your own online docs?  Google Docs makes it easy to create, store and share online documents, spreadsheets and presentations.  Learn more at docs.google.com."
[20:45] <@p2pu-Jacky> http://boingboing.net/2011/03/24/douglas-rushkoffs-ne.html
[20:46] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Just tried every link and seem to be working for me?
[20:46] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Jonathan Liking how that's set out. Makes great sense ... especially to link it in with badges.
[20:47] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Doug, maybe it's just me.
[20:47] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Shall ask others to test on Twitter
[20:48] <p2pu-jonathanf> I will need to exit momentarily -- Just a word @Doug about goals/expectations here in the program:  I didn't have any specific objectives, other than to learn from others interested in changing education/learning through innovative and fun ways for recognizing achievement.  Just looking to learn from the resources and ideas you all have, have a great conversation.  It comes at a crazy time, with us trying to build
[20:48] <p2pu-jonathanf> ... and share where I can!
[20:48] <@p2pu-Jacky> Wow! This thesis is better than a blog. Great graphics Doug; I am in Chapter 8.
[20:48] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> @Jacky, I'm jelous
[20:49] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jacky Thanks. Need to update it with the work I've done over the last couple of weeks. Hoping to submit by end of August. :-D
[20:49] <@p2pu-Jacky> Thomas, you might try a different browser. I am using FireFox.
[20:50] <p2pu-jonathanf> @Doug way to go!
[20:50] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Thomas Send me an email via http://about.me/dajbelshaw and I'll email you latest Word version :-)
[20:50] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Ack...jealous. That's what I'm like without spellcheck
[20:50] <p2pu-jonathanf> Do forgive me. Need to run.  See you all online.
[20:50] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> @Jonathan Thanks for coming and sharing!
[20:50] <p2pu-jonathanf> Likewise!
[20:50] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Thanks Jonathan!
[20:50] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> @Jonathan See ya
[20:51] <p2pu-jonathanf> :)
[20:51] <@p2pu-Jacky> Bye Jonathan and all... See you next week.
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[20:51] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> OK, let's wrap it up shall we? Thanks Thomas and Ian. :-)
[20:52] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> 'Fraid I'm away next week and may will be offline nexyt Sat, but will keep up on site.
[20:52] <p2pu-ThomasGokey> Thanks everyone.
[20:52] <p2pu-IaninSheffi> See you folks
[20:52] <p2pu-dajbelshaw> Laters!
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